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Posted by Bestdog
- 02 April, 2009, 02:09 PMHey Guys,
It seems you didn't notice my previous reply to this post. There is published guidance on applying the laws. Here's the URL
http://www.abf.com.au/events/tournregs/InRegGuid09.pdf
Regarding law 70E(2), it states the order is Top Down.
Eric, your experience in Wollongong 2 years ago would have been before the 2007 laws came into effect. This clarification of order of play came in with 2007 laws, so that may explain the different rulings.
cheers
Bruce
It seems you didn't notice my previous reply to this post. There is published guidance on applying the laws. Here's the URL
http://www.abf.com.au/events/tournregs/InRegGuid09.pdf
Regarding law 70E(2), it states the order is Top Down.
Eric, your experience in Wollongong 2 years ago would have been before the 2007 laws came into effect. This clarification of order of play came in with 2007 laws, so that may explain the different rulings.
cheers
Bruce
Posted by Paul Sherman
- 30 March, 2009, 10:27 PMEric, I understand your dilemma but simply, there is no law regarding from the top or the bottom. The laws are written by the Drafting Subcommittee of the Executive Committee of the World Bridge Federation Laws Committee and are adopted by the Australian Bridge Federation as well as other national bodies of other countries.
Far be it for me to secondguess the reasoning of the Drafting Subcommittee in their drafting of the Laws but I suspect that their reasoning in not specifying whether a suit should be run from the top down or bottom up is one of common sense. In a suit headed by the AKQ and ending with the 2, you couldn't "run" the suit for more than 1 trick from the bottom unless the suit was established already, in which case it made no difference. But common sense would dictate that a suit can only be run one way and for that reason this was not further specified in the Laws.
Far be it for me to secondguess the reasoning of the Drafting Subcommittee in their drafting of the Laws but I suspect that their reasoning in not specifying whether a suit should be run from the top down or bottom up is one of common sense. In a suit headed by the AKQ and ending with the 2, you couldn't "run" the suit for more than 1 trick from the bottom unless the suit was established already, in which case it made no difference. But common sense would dictate that a suit can only be run one way and for that reason this was not further specified in the Laws.
Posted by eric
- 30 March, 2009, 10:05 PMPaul, the articles is interesting, there is no law to say 'run the D' but this is already a very common practice in the game. Back to my original question, 'run the D' means from top or bottom ? There is no law to tell, there is not regulations to tell. Sensibly, 'run the D' is from the top. I hope there is somewhere to state this and all the Directors in Australia would follow, better than different Director different ruling.
In the article, again. 'sun the D' is not a legal call from the declarer but it is a very common way to play, hence, after DK and all turned the card over and dummy pull the DQ is normal and just follow the instructions from the declarer. In this situation, revoked is established.
Now comes in the law and common practice. Or in the real life, Common Practice or the morale standard in the society may apply in a court case. Especially in a Club level, if there is Law or Regulations governed, I will apply the common practice in the Club / region / country.
In the article, again. 'sun the D' is not a legal call from the declarer but it is a very common way to play, hence, after DK and all turned the card over and dummy pull the DQ is normal and just follow the instructions from the declarer. In this situation, revoked is established.
Now comes in the law and common practice. Or in the real life, Common Practice or the morale standard in the society may apply in a court case. Especially in a Club level, if there is Law or Regulations governed, I will apply the common practice in the Club / region / country.
Posted by Paul Sherman
- 22 March, 2009, 12:44 PMLaurie Kelso (an A grade director) has posted an interesting article on just such an animal recently. Whilst the issue of that article is not specifically whether it should be run from the top or the bottom, it assumes that it is from the top. The article is well worth reading anyway and can be found here: http://www.abf.com.au/directors/bulletins/rtd2000.pdf
You may need Adobe Acrobat reader to view the article.
My own view on this topic is that it's silly to run any suit from the bottom. That's not running a suit, that's asking for a low card for the purposes of ruffing it or unblocking a higher card from hand, unless the suit is already set up (there are no losers in it) in which case it is irrelevant which end it is run from.
You may need Adobe Acrobat reader to view the article.
My own view on this topic is that it's silly to run any suit from the bottom. That's not running a suit, that's asking for a low card for the purposes of ruffing it or unblocking a higher card from hand, unless the suit is already set up (there are no losers in it) in which case it is irrelevant which end it is run from.
Posted by eric
- 21 March, 2009, 09:03 PMIn addition to 'logical', we have to play according to the law and also we have to have an agreed way to run within Australia at least. I had two different experience, that's the reason I would like an A-grade director to tell.
I played in Woolongong 2 years ago, the 'run the Club' was judged as play from the low card. This time in Gold Coast, the director hesitated and I asked HER to check with someone else, she came back and say from the 'regulations' this is from the top. i asked HER to give me the information about the 'regulations' so that I can learn and make it as a consistent ruling within Australia. She has not followed this up with me. So, I put a message here and would like to know more.
I can understand the 'run the Club' is normally from top down, then the director two years ago may be wrong. However, I hope there is a regulation or supplement information from ABF to define this.
I played in Woolongong 2 years ago, the 'run the Club' was judged as play from the low card. This time in Gold Coast, the director hesitated and I asked HER to check with someone else, she came back and say from the 'regulations' this is from the top. i asked HER to give me the information about the 'regulations' so that I can learn and make it as a consistent ruling within Australia. She has not followed this up with me. So, I put a message here and would like to know more.
I can understand the 'run the Club' is normally from top down, then the director two years ago may be wrong. However, I hope there is a regulation or supplement information from ABF to define this.
Posted by Alan Jones
- 19 March, 2009, 07:16 AMThe question implies that if a small club is played then someone else will win the trick!
This would make it impossible to "run the suit".
Therefore, logically, a request to "run the Clubs" must be from the top down.
This would make it impossible to "run the suit".
Therefore, logically, a request to "run the Clubs" must be from the top down.
Posted by Bestdog
- 12 March, 2009, 10:48 AMHi,
The 2007 laws are clear on this. It is top down relevant law is 70E(2) a.
Here's an extract from the Zone 7 interpretation of 2007 laws.
Law 70E2 In adjudicating disputed claims involving an unstated line of play the following
guidelines apply:
(a) Top down
A declarer who states that he is cashing a suit is normally assumed to cash them
from the top, this is especially so if there is some solidity.
cheers
Bruce
The 2007 laws are clear on this. It is top down relevant law is 70E(2) a.
Here's an extract from the Zone 7 interpretation of 2007 laws.
Law 70E2 In adjudicating disputed claims involving an unstated line of play the following
guidelines apply:
(a) Top down
A declarer who states that he is cashing a suit is normally assumed to cash them
from the top, this is especially so if there is some solidity.
cheers
Bruce
Posted by eric
- 10 March, 2009, 09:06 PM"Run the Clubs" was called from the declarer, should the dummy play from the top or from the bottom ?
In the Law, "play a Club" means play the lowest. To avoid confusion, better say "run the Clubs from the top" instead of "run the Clubs". However, when "run the Clubs" is called, can the defender asked the dummy to play the card from bottom ?
In the Law, "play a Club" means play the lowest. To avoid confusion, better say "run the Clubs from the top" instead of "run the Clubs". However, when "run the Clubs" is called, can the defender asked the dummy to play the card from bottom ?